Monday, January 10, 2011

A facebook discussion that went a little too far...

Khalid Farooq We have all resources to condemn and agitate against US for punishing a lady who has obvious links with bad-groups, but we don't have a word to offer to those innocent women who are raped, punished and jailed in our very own PAK society.... Do I remember how many religious parties spoke in favour of Mukhtaran Mai when she was raped and tortured?
Shahid Totally agree,yahaan molviyoon ko US ka naam milna chahiye,bloody hippocrates.........
Shahbaz I think media focus plays important role to project certain issues, Allah says in quran" u r the best people, u enjoin what is best, and forbid what is bad, so u and me, molvi or non molvi, as long as muslims, are equally responsible for wh...atever is happening in the society, if u think molvi are forgetting that aspect of society, u and me can compensate or atleast can remind our fellows, we should not divide ourselves if we think we are one, "Momin is mirror of other momin, so what ever is wrong corrects it, so instead of colloiding, constructive approach is better
KF I like your thoughts dear Shahbaz. Ironically, you have been part of a set up which has over the years believed in intolerance to difference of opinion and taken the course of violence in the name of religion. People have been killed in a to keep HOLD of certain institutions. Political victimization has been reached to a level. The extremist path that was taken by Zia was sugar coated by JI and fed to the people in the name of God. This has made the correction procedure very difficult, if not impossible. I wish people like you come to understand that selling religion for the sake of politics is worse than day to day activities at campus. If you will learn and say, your folks might listen to you. Otherwise, I remember once Irshad Ahmad Haqqani wrote a column where he criticized politics of JI and he himself was so aware (read afraid) of the violent behavior of your fellows that he went on to say that he was a 70 years old man who co...uldn't stand any beating. And that he would be glad if Qazi Saheb keep his guys rstrained lest they come and beat him for criticizing JI. Tolerance to difference of opinion and criticism is the soul to path of betterment. Knowledge is only when it is accompanied by tolerance to difference but Jamiat and JI has virtually destroyed this element out of institutions. So, if you agree to change, I would say, be careful. I know its your party but they will be hard to understand.........
Shahbaz whatever u say, there is no way out except to enjoin what Allah orders, and prohibit what Allah disallow, what is methodology, should not come from sacular forces but islamic forces, if u think that is not possible then it means perhaps is intorlerant and not practical, so what ever we all do have to justify at day of judgement according to quran and sunnah, if u think u have enough preparation for that , that is good, may Allah make for us easy to understand what He wants from us and make it easy for us to implement in practical life
KF This is exacly people react to criticism in Pakistan now. If I point finger at Shahbaz, he will say 'do you mean Islam is intolerant?' this is not like that my dear... Everybody after Holy Prophet and his Sehaba can comitt mistakes and shou...ld be open to criticism. learn to listen with patient that if situation is worsening in pakistan, there may be a policy going in the wrong direction. you may be at mistake.... after all, you are just another human being, not a holy cow, or are you? JI is a political party and can be criticised for its policy and that shouldn't be taken as a criticism of Islam.... learn patience my dear. you need to learn patience...
Nusrat Meethi meethi to ap ne b kr di shahbaz bhai ki:-P see khalid bhai,im nt a molvi nor do i like dis hs becm a trend to criticize the molviz nd evrybdy finds hapines in criticizing them widout takng care of hs/hr own shortcmings.dis is nt gud.if molviz hv dn nthng,wt hv the non-molviz dn?all r equaly respnsbl 4 d destructn of dis country.btw i cnsidrd u a molvi 2 b4 u went into psychiatry:p
KF Nusrat: There is absolutely nothing personal against Shahbaz here. You know I get irritated by the hypocratic approach of our society towards issues. Jamiat has been violent and intolerant to criticism too. And whenever anyone does so, they... declare a holy war against them, saying that this was aimed against Islam. This is absolutely wrong attitude. And these guys are specially criticized because they use religion for politics, rather sell religion for politics. They kill people people in this sake as you might remember a student was killed in Peshawar University. Murder is a serious offense and there should be zero tolerance to violence on campus. But they have zero tolerance to tolerance :p you are right there that it the whole society which acts like that. A judge cricized is judiciary insulted, a general questioned is army humiliated, a politician accounted is an attack on democracy. So is a molvi cricized deemed as ...a conspiracy against Islam. But this is not so. I don't cricize Islam. I criticize man made policies aimed in the wrong directions. these guys may be misled and might have no bad intent, but their policies should be no holy cows. Whatever I say is in the best interest of us all, according to me. I am open to differences and would be happy to exchange views with anyone, respecting and tolerating whatever they think or say. I believe at least this is what everyone should learn, or learn to learn..........
Fareed I totally agree with Khalid, the question is very simple Who gives JI the un controlled power to enforce Quran and Hadith ? What is their Justification ? Normally When they delivering their sermons they term Democracy Un-islamic and a syste...m created by secular people (as if Being secular is being a devil) yet when there is ELection TIME all the Molanas wearing new Shirwanis and putting Khizab on their Beared come begging for Voting. They eve, Disgrace Quran take it to places which are unclean (non Pak) but it is all okay as far as they get votes. Yet if a poor Christian by no mistake of his touches Quran , the Entire Christan community is made to suffer the brunt. *
@Nusrat : We blame Molvi just like media Blame politicians because in our case its the Molvis who decides your destiny.... A single Fitwa of molvi can bring you death , a single Fight with Molvi can Mean the loss of life (as they are doing in UET peshwar and Lahore) , A single Criticism on Molvi and you are out of ISLAM , There is a simple but very deep saying that "With authority comes Responsibility" so when will these Molvis with infinite Authority come and Claim a little responsibility ???
Nusrat @khalid bhai u r rite khalid bhai.i dint support them.just pointed out the other aspct.i personally know the jamat ppl commiting voilence but same is the case with other political parties having their students wings.btw do u think JI is abs...olutely wrong or is it the members of JI commiting wrong things?is JI not sincere with Islam or its cause?or is it the way they hv adopted wich is wrong?shud the whole JI be held responsible 4 it?like most of the Muslims r nt following the true spirit of Islam but can we blame the religion 4 it?
what I m trying to say is that each of us is responsible for what is happening in society and we will be asked what we did, so we have to be very careful to criticize someone working for Allah, and I think it is not easy unless u r good in ...knowledge of Islam, other thing is when you are worried for urself then u find less time to point out just faults of others without appericiating the good, what people do is not that important for us than what we are doing, are we enough satisfied of our responsibilities, for that we have to go deep into teachings b/c after all we all have to answer individually, we should not start our responsibility from criticizing but from actions, criticism comes perhaps much later, just saying that person is doing wrong is not enough, this is what whole nation is doing, why that person is not doing this etc, blame game is not enough, if whole society goes wrong and u did right , i think it is enough for u to answer, if whole society do good, and u dont do good, this whole process will not help u to prepare for answer, so being educated person come forward, learn the deen, implement it, preach it, and show mirror to ur brothers too(not enemies), we are not enemies, we are brothers, no matter how wrong we are
Fareed I think every person is a mirror for himself, you can not show mirror to an other person unless he is not willing to see himself. And what if that person is Blind , What if the society has gone Blind and even of every one is okay , Who will... bring the right mirror .... or in other words who is responsible for tarnishing this mirror with Blood and hatred ??? ... People Don't need preaching right now they need Healing, I believe Before accepting any religion one must be a good HUman , We need to lean Humanity , if you want to change the society then Prayers can not do it alone but Actions can , What Molvis are doing for changing this , except Chanting slogans for the terrorists and Spreading hatred ? who in the current Big Molvis has talked about Tolerance ,love and patience where as these three virtues were always adapted by Prophet (P.B.U.H). Taif and fall of Mekkah were some examples am i Wrong ???
KF You are absolutely right Fareed Bhae. This is exactly what I meant to say. No one from JI or any other religious party spoke for Mukhtaran Mai yet everyone is speaking for Aafia Siddiqi. Why? What is the difference between them? Both are ou...r sisters and daughters. But the fact is that Mukhtaran Mai needed actions as she was there in Pakistan. Her culprits are still at large and no one goes on streets or chants slogans. Because we are liers, hippocrats and we all sell religion for politics. But protesting for Afia earns political mileage... Its sells good infact.We need to look at ourselves. Molvies need to look at themselves and need to learn what they need to teach or preach. Alas! They only know violence, hatred, sectarianism and dirty politics...
Fareed Exactly, these hypocrites drag God and ISLAM in to every matter and use it for their own gain, Qazi Sahib never stops criticizing America may i ask him where did he got his heart surgery from .... America isn't it??? i won't talk about th...ose Millions of Dollars that he and his gang made in Afghan War, by the way even though he belong to NWFP i have never seen him protesting against a single suicide bomb which has so far claimed over 5000 Lives only in NWFP, yet we see him protesting for Terrorists like Afia and her gang.
I don't know why these magical mirrors are not yet manufactured for these Big hypocrites and only common man is made to suffer by such mirrors made up of hypocrisy and lies.
Shahbaz oh, brothers I dont mean to hurt you guys,only criticism makes no difference, kindly read quran and sunnah, it is our obligation to try our best to implement it, if u think i m not implementing it properly , then join someone who is doing i...t right, afterall we all have to answer Allah, if no one is doing it and u are wise enough to tell society what is quran and sunnah, then tell them plz. a muslim mean who submit his will to Allah, so if Allah orders us to do everything for Him so we have to do everything for Him alone, momin momin ka aina hai, us mai burai dekhta hai to uski islah krta hai, ye hadith hai, aur mirror dikhaney se mera ye matlab thha,but sirf dusron ko galian deney se zimmadari adaa nahi hoti, we have to do something practically so that at day of judgement we can present something atleast. that day we have to stand in front of Allah and have to answer our deeds, who will do wrong will pay the price
KF Thats a good thing Shahbaz. Thanks for suggesting the right way. But I wonder when would you learn where to take wisdom. By you I mean your school of thought, the political party which funds the student wing for all the mess in educational ...institutions, where people are killed to hold pressure, tortured in the name of religion whereas there is no other reason than all that cheap dirty politics which is hallmark of our society. Do you have a vision or understanding of these wrongdoings? Or let me put it simply like this: how do define this violence, collateral damage, aggression, or adivine favor to your friends to save humanity? Although I know you don't hold any effective position and even if you accept these wrongdoings, there won't be any difference. I know the day you start keeping a different opinion, you will be out........... You very well know how strong your establishment is. But I think we are in our own very circles, expressing ourselves at whatever forum we can. So can you please state why did JI not stood for Mukhtaran Mai and has stood for Aafia? And what... about the student that was killed in Peshawar Univ lately? Can you stop referring to Koran for your deeds and come back on earth to give a humanly explanation of your sins? I know what I should read and what I should do. So being friends and tolerating all this hot discussion, can you please give me an answer to all this?
Fareed ‎@Khalid Bhai: No matter how we react, these self made Holy Souls will never come out of their shells , unless one day their shells are broken by the miseries and agonies of people who are made to suffer due to their hypocritical and ignorant behavior. I hope instead of making complicated religious statements they only follow the simple principals of humanity but they won't do so because, in doing so they will loose their power. We are going through the same DARK AGE as Europe was going through some 500 years ago, But our situation is more drastic , In Europe the pope used to sell mansions in Heaven for Money , here these Molvis are selling places in heaven at th...e cost of innocent blood (money off course is the prime factor) , But here out people have dead souls they tolerate everything and never speak out ? and i am afraid if these molvis continue to exploit the faiths soon people will start loosing the faith too and then only molvis have to be blamed as they consider them selves as the authority of faith.
Shahbaz well khalid, we have judiciary system which decides the crime, so they did, culprits were released after finding tht mukhtaran mai was propoganda of ngo's so we should believe in our judiciary, it was a media game especially by khabrain of ...zia shahid, her sister is nanni of my wife, so I have enough information on that, regarding aafia siddiqi, the response muslims gave is much less than they should give, Rasoolallah(pbuh) said, people of beginning, e.g sahaba and taba,een are better than people from later ages, so Muhammad bin qasim and mo'otsim billa are good examples how they react when their daughter goes in non muslim hand, but we sold our daughters and sons in miserable price.I think u should come out of illusion of western media, in this war of america, we sacrificed everything of ours, and we are not given even this favour that our daughter should not be raped and given back to us when they know that we are very sensitive on this issue I didnt say that what I say is quran , but what I say is that u and me have to standup before Allah and we should prepare in light of quran, if u think i m not right person, then find some right person and work with that, b/c ofcourse peopl...e will be judged according to ur intentions, murder in university is wrong, and whoever did should be punished, and if u r doing good, it doesnt mean that u r always right, freed bai, if molvi mean person with beard, then everyone of us should have beard as it is prescribed by Prophet(pbuh), and if u r talking about ideology, u want to say every person with beard has wrong ideology, then u should come forward , should bear this sunnah, and should continue that effort, which Rasoolallah ordered all of us, and we all have to answer, fareed bai u think humanity is every thing, but I think what Allah and his Rasool(pbuh) says is everything
KF She was not an NGO propaganda. According to Iftikhar Sherwani her case was reported by a local pesh imam in friday sermon and then NGO's started protesting about her. And her case was weak because no body felt safe to witness against those powerful who comitted the crime. I think the people whom you invited to our campus to slap Azfar because he was going against Islam (am I right or he was just against Jamiat), those young and powerful young men should have at least visited her in the village. Their sister is she.... But she looks propaganda to you because your ghunda grdi is limited to place where you have to keep hold, political influence. And everywhere else, all sisters and daughters are suffering but you won't care. What about the girl that has bee...n recently kidnapped in Faisalabad and raped for 16 days? Why didn't jamiat boys went to rescue her? And after she was released, her sister was kidnapped and raped. What is the difference between them and Afia? Political mileage and money my dear. If you agree and open your eyes, you can see that. I know my position on war on terror. I was against america's invasion then and now. but I keep a daughter of the land who never got training of heavy weapon dear than a lady who got herself in trouble instead of being an ambassador of islam..., she became an ambassador of terror. Saying that a killed is a bad thing and experiencing it is another. Did you ever felt how shameful your act was when you invited outsiders to curb your fellows? But I don't think you can ever recognise yoour faults. try to open up dear. You will be held answerable too. and when you kill people in any name, matter becomes more sensitive.... take care...
Fareed @Shahbaz bhai: You and i better know what i mean by molvi so lets not discuss it. By the way its good that you reffered to name of muhammad Ibne Qasim , You know what was done to him ? he was wrapped in the Skin of a camel and left to die the desert , let me not open the chapter of tariq bin ziyad and others, did america did this to them or it was the ISLAMIC Khilafat of that time ??? yet we won't admit our mistakes.
Well i don't know which Book of religion are you following but I can assure you that by reading Quran again and again I get the message of Humanity enforced again and again, and my brother religion is for humans if the so called contractors of religion show their inhuman face then my brother i am sure God will also not count them as Humans let alone Muslims and Momins.
I don't know why you people only follow the Sunnah just to the level of hair, Beared and Maswak , why don't you follow the actions of P.B.U.H, his lessons of love, tolerence and peace . Your philospohy seems so shallow to me, I recommend you to read and understand the true meaning of ISlam in depth apply it yourself and then start preaching to others , with great regret i find all of your remarks extemely shallow and at times immature
Shahbaz if u think we are wrong , it's ok, it is ur opinion, you can live with that, and if u understand islam better then u should keep on teaching that version of islam, it is good for u, azfar issue u should discuss in private, this is not the f...orum, definitely we can be wrong , why not, u should correct us, most welcome, khalid u should try to see into mukhtaran case again, I have looked into it enough, i think to tell what is in someone's heart when that person is doing something is not possible, so u should not stamp the intentions of us so clearly, every person has limitations, so u should not expect us devine, fareed bai it is quite possible that my comments are immature or shallow, I dont mean to win the debate, u r most welcome to give ur point of view and I accept it. I think taking up those cases of inspectors will also give us political mileage, whatever we will do , it will give us mileage, we want to correct everything but we r human beings with limited abilities, we want that pakistan should be gove...rned by islam, but we are weak, so perhaps this is the reason we couldnt be successful, so part of one nation, our goal should be one and we should struggle through the way Allah and his Rasool(pbuh) ordered, making different party doesnt matter, what matter is ur intention, so mistakes are also part of us, and finally is destiny which takes it's course according to What Allah decides
Nusrat According to Iftikhar Sherwani her case was reported by a local pesh imam in friday sermon and then NGO's started protesting about her....
was dis pesh imam sm molvi or sumthin else?
why did the NGOs not protest against the killings of thousands of innocent iraqis, afghanis, kashmiris n palestinians??y r they nt protesting against the ongoing killings(wich include innocent ppl in addition to the terrorists) in drone attacks?here too its a matter of money...who wil grant them funds if they do so..who wil...
Fareed Well Again Those NGO are not there to help out the people and yes they are there to get funds yet they are not selling religion like hot cakes , any one can criticize them and they don't have the gangs of tugs to protect them.
The question is not Molvi vs NGOs the question here is when will the dead souls of our people get re-born ?
Nusrat agreed..
Shahbaz chishti bai aap koi aisa model tyar krain phir logon ko btain k ye hai islam ki sahi picture, so that people should come out of tug gangs and follow what brought, maulana maududi brought a model in form of jamaat and jamiat and then told people to come and join them, so people joined them, now u come and reject it totally, take one more step , give people something to follow
KF here is a correction to make for Shahbaz. Fareed Ahmed is not our class fellow chishti bhae. He is a friend of mine and these days a PhD scholar in France. Second thing, I personally don't "criticize molvis and support NGOs". It is not a co...mplete sentence. I would rather say, we are all humans. Molvis should behave like human beings. They should learn that whatever they think can be wrong. They should learn to listen criticism and tolerate it. And while working in the name of religion, gangs and dirty politics should be put away. OR if that is not possible, put the name of religion away and be like PSF MSF. At least they don't use islam as a tool or a blackmailing method in politics. this doesn't mean that they are right or that I am supporting them. This means I am against the misuse of an istitution which has held the nation hostage by spreading fear of God. I speak for their good and for my own good. I believe that if molvis are right, whole society will get better because they are stakeholders everywhere.... I personally don't have any grudges but I think they have enjoyed monoply in last 60 years and contributed nothing but policies which were not in the right direction. If they admit that they can be wrong or can be criticized, things can be set better. Second thing, solution of every problem is not to make a new jamaat every time. We can take pain to correct the existing one. Because there are receptors in society, the points of intervention. If JI is not right, but it keeps on occupying ...those receptors, no other intervention can work. So I believe in trying to make things better, and that is, to spread what I think in friends and wherever possible. Shahbaz. You are not the only legitimate hier of Modoodi saheb. He didn't transfer JI in your name. He did what he did and you will be asked what you will do. If you try to follow the role model of honesty, give up an organization that is involved in dirty politics using religion as a tool, or accept its faults, stay there and try to correct them, I think that will be a jehad. But for God's sake, try to see things with your own eyes. I know you never looked into any depth of Mukhtaran Mai's case. You heard from JI people that it is a NGO stuff and you believed that. And that is your problem. You are not allowed to see with your eyes. You see what they make you to see...
Shahbaz khalid you are criticizing me for so many days, I think my behaviour in this was much better and soft in this discussion, other thing why u r forgetting that u r muslim and it is my duty to tell u and ur duty to tell me that what we should and what we should not do(al asar), but u think our way of telling is not right, so bring some model and tell society that jamiat is not right way to call people to Allah , this is right way, so all those people who fear Allah will come and follow u, and jamiat will abolish and there will b no need for it, our institutes were established on english school system where church and school are separate, we tried to bring our history back that we should read science so that we obey Allah as our forefather did it, and we are much successful in this, previously islam was in madrassa, now islam is in comprehensive with all knoledges, we all have duty to be molvi , i mean having beard, practicing muslims and best scientists, in the world, this is our moto so we are successful in both worlds
KF And this is not only about yourself. I myself sat in Jamiat in Sargodha and Rawalpindi before giving it up. Nobody there can tolerate a difference in opinion. Nobody believed that there can be a second opinon or a point of view. A differenc...e is pronounced as a violation of Islamic teachings which makes things difficult to understand or communicate. I don't have doubt about any teachings, but I think you need to correct and I am not going to make another Jamaat but would always look forward to correct it, at whatever forum possible, I will convey my differences. I wish you own these differences sometime, knowing me for years that I don't have any enmity with my people, nor with molvis, I am only against their (and your) wrong approach toward religion and politics. You sell deen for politics and you cannot be allowed to do it for long. I might not be a mediator, but there are some laws of nature of they are bound to happen. Try to realize them and don't think that anyone here is against Islam. Take care...
You know Shahbaz that I am not criticizing anything that you just mentioned. I will praise all this. But the wrong stuff that your group has inflicted on people is to be criticized, not the good one.
Shahbaz I accept that we are not perfect, I give u opinion that join someone who is better than us, if for time being u dont find someone like that then keep on working with those people who r relatively better and if u r not satisfied then u should be proactive to take step by yourself and establish something, b/c we need some forum to work, but the way you criticize shows that what ever we are doing is solely for personal reasons, and there is no good in this and it should be abolished at all, and if u think something is good in it, then u should appreciate that whil criticizing and should try to correct people instead of telling them to finish it at all  If you don't accept the wrongdoings of yourself n folks, why should I praise you? I cannot appreciate something bad which is wrapped in a good packing material. I don't doubt your intentions. That is between you and your God. But I believe you are being used, unaware I guess. I want you to realize this.
Shahbaz it means there is no good in jamiat and they are misusing iccocent people, so it should be abolished, then we need some systems which are so pure and committed to Allah that a muslim can see it clearly and be part of it. there could be anot...her explanation which we should also try to look into." is it possible that we are so disobedient to Allah that we want to do everything what our nafs says us to do and whenever some hurdle comes against our nafs, we want to prove that it is wrong for so and so reason and let's finish it, so that we can obey our desires easly???, I dont know, may be
KF for me, that may be right because I am a sinful person. but for you guys, you are the best people I have ever known and I salute you and folks for your untiring efforts to bring this society to a right path, which is evident from progress in last three decades. I am afraid God will be unpleased if I said anything extra in your respect. So I praise :) ab khush?
Shahbaz hahhahahah, no, we are muslim and we need to remind each other and try to take care of muslim body, it is not easy, may Allah take us through this course easily, and result is only with Allah, our try is to act and pray so Allah show us right path and make things easy for all of us amin
Nusrat aamin.

1 comment:

  1. Jah people are different, some don't have a clue what is ok to write online and what not. And it is true that a lot of people speak up about their opinion on line, in email...but there are just a few who have a guts to speak up in eye to eye situation. Like in Mac Mall song